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Relype

Epics

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Hello, 

I have the following suggestion which is proven to work well regards to the Epic jewels.

  • Remove Epics from the shop
  • Make Epics only boss obtainable
  • Epics should have expiration time of 1440 minutes.
  • 1st boss to be a week after start and make respawn time much longer
  • Make S grade much more expensive, so it's unique and it is really end game, a good price would start even from 500-600k and then mats and etc. Or make mats much harder to get.
  • Make A grade a bit more expensive and make it worth buying.
  • Add normal scroll
  • Make Blessed scroll to start from 0% and to require kills to increase the chance of success, by doing this we will no longer strugle with the first day +16. Of course make it to maximum of 50% after +12 to have balance.

By making this changes you will increase the B grade fights there will be big gap between the casual player and the hardcore player. Everybody will be able to actually make more kills, and know that even if they miss a day of playing, they would still have a chance of recovering and come back to the game.

If you remove the Epics from shop it, with the current S grade prices the people will be able to buy it in the first day so I suggest a massive increase of price, so S grade is something unique, which requires a lot of effort and A grade to be also more expensive and actally worth buying.

This will bring much more new players and it will prevent others from leaving as the biggest thing which makes the server unbalanced are the EPICS and the low cost of S grade. I can farm valakas in 1 day and the disbalance starts from there. If you make an archer and you get AQ in day one and baium in day two days thats it, or make a mage with valakas and AM ,  the high dmg is there and it is really hard for normal players to catch up right? Our goal as community is to increase the longevity of the server and make it great for all kind of different players, personally I am a hardcore player, I take a week off and I play 24/7. I want to see new players been able to kill me and to make my life harder... why not, thats what makes the challange interesting. 

To see everybody using B grade a week longer which defenately feel more balanced and stable, will also allow people to actually enjoy the game, also donating would not be so much of a problem as currently what makes A grade buying from shop so OP is that combained with epics makes much bigger difference in gameplay., so with reemoving the epics that will no longer be issue. If you make one server last longer, you will  bring more value to the business and make more customers enjoying your product, I am not saying you are not doing well, just saying that as a part of the server community we can provide you with suggestions of what we think is the issue and it is your decision to take it or not. I just want the best for the server as I dont want to see this game dying, at least not yet!

I want to see other people from the player base to add replies and vote for the idea and of course if something of what I said is not of your likings please share your opinion, lets support OvC with our best!

 

I am always open for chats regards faction servers, I've been playing in all possible big faction servers trough the years and thats makes my experise more accurate.

Edited by Relype
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23 minutes ago, Relype said:

Epics should have expiration time of 1440 minutes.

I've seen it somewhere... L2Infinite KEK

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Yes, this server doesn't exist anymore for more than 6 years or even 8 and if its required time always changed with few minutes so its not the same, but it was making a great balanace!

Edited by Relype

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As a player that used to play here a few seasons ago, I agree that increasing the time of B and A grade would be beneficial to the server. Currently, you can get A grade without donations in a few hours max. Hence nolifers were able to get A grade in a few hours and S grade in 1-2 days max which should never be possible no matter how much a player is playing.

 

Donations though, are a different story.

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the idea of making harder/longer to be able to gear is ofc good, but your suggestion about epic with time on it i dont think its good.

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-Just make S grade harder, A grade is fine and should be the most top long lasting grade in the server, S is already endgame

-Nolifers will get everything faster anyway there's nothing u can do about that if u aint one

-imo epics are fine just don't run them first week and get them only once per week

 

 

 

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The downside of removing epics from the shop is, that mainly hardcore players/clans will have epics in the end because they will bid extremly high prices to every random that was lucky enough to get an epic juwel drop.

I can imagine bids in a range that a newbie can get Full S armor/juwel/weapon and tons of enchants for it and guess what...most of them will do this trade.

On the other hand it will take a while till this scenario kicks in.

I like the idea of removing Epics from shops but i dont like the timer idea. If epics arent buyable they shouldnt have an expiration time.

 

About the Prices for A-S grade: Veterans might remember that we had allot higher prices in the past and allot people were complaining about the prices and that they cant afford S grade.

With the last fixes emerald reduced the adena income in several ways. We will see if this impact have the effect you're looking for.

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lol expiration is a bad idea in this case i would buy epics only if i got full S or something 😄 

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37 minutes ago, Chevignon said:

I can imagine bids in a range that a newbie can get Full S armor/juwel/weapon and tons of enchants for it and guess what...most of them will do this trade.

On the other hand it will take a while till this scenario kicks in.

I like the idea of removing Epics from shops but i dont like the timer idea. If epics arent buyable they shouldnt have an expiration time.

 

About the Prices for A-S grade: Veterans might remember that we had allot higher prices in the past and allot people were complaining about the prices and that they cant afford S grade.

With the last fixes emerald reduced the adena income in several ways. We will see if this impact have the effect you're looking for.

You have to keep in mind that in past seasons you mention @Chevignon, there were no Adena Scrolls that were scaling with Expertise Scavenger and also gear penalty. Full kill was 10-20a, killing spree`s and ending them was the point of progression.

And i think that most of the community remembers that back in those days season were still living for like 1-2months at least.  Epics should be close to normal Retail-Server end-game feature, not mages in DC robe and Daimon crystal staff farming for Valakas already because its not that hard to reach, but there should be some kind of progression like its suggested B=>A=>S grade Weapon/Armor=> Epics, people are already suggesting stuff like the one above because they simple know it from other Faction Servers that were successfull in the past and had much more longer seasons. The reason of that is because the grind was much harder than it is on current state of the server.

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Posted (edited)

Hi all,

By setting up a timer for epics , allows players not always to use them , as imagine even if they make it only boss obtainable, how on earth we are going to catch up if its not with timer? With expiry time they will need to be really be careful on when to use the jewel, I meant only the timer to start when the jewel is equiped! I have played in a server very long time ago who had this system and I can tell you that from more than 1k people online for 3months there were 3 people with epics. And that was the sweet spot. We had to relay more on enchant skills , buy normal gear , enchant and also be better in game. I understand why some of you are not very conviced with my idea about jewels, but my best time in faction servers was exactly when this was applied, And things like clan has all the epics didnt exist, as it was still a random drop and we had 1 baium per month, it didnt had valakas but they can always add for 1 per month as well. Epics are failing the game, its nice to have, but the difference between S grade weapon player without epics vs new player is less brutal than the full epic player against newbie. Difference between Daimon and Wizzard Tear in dmg is 70-150 dmg. Which is still less than actually getting valakas and have every second hit crit. Same for baium, AQ and etc. 

 

Chevignon, this idea is already tested and what you say never existed, simply because the epics werent allowed for trade! That was the formula of making the balance and not allowing big players to buy!

Edited by Relype

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no epics = server with 95% of mage, 4% of healer, 1% of other class. nobody is going to play archer/dagger without any epics and if some do, they will be "useless" and then complain on forum about how mage are too strong, cause yea mage are going to destroy everything.

 

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Posted (edited)

why do you think like that ? GH with lv 78 without epics still hits 2600-3k with crit upo to 5-6k archers would relay on enchant bow A grade or S grade and etc, archers without epics will hit again 2-3k with epics is 5k , and mages without valakas and AM +10 wont hit as hard as last season, I did daimon +8 + valakas and full expert skill sfor M crit and yea I was hitting nearly every second hit crit of 5-6k but i had skill enchanted nearly +15 so .. without valakas i wont be able to do this i will just hit 600-800 ... 

 

And if I cant do same dmg as i did last season then how I am going to kill archers and daggers so easy ? I wont be able to simple as that. 

Edited by Relype

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1 hour ago, Relype said:

why do you think like that ? GH with lv 78 without epics still hits 2600-3k with crit upo to 5-6k

No they don't.  That's literally the damage output you reach after you get aq/baium and you enchant your blows and it's mostly  against low defense mages. Unless you are talking about attacking 500 p.def plated leather archers, then sure, but the argument is kinda baseless. I read all of your post and you exaggerate most of the numbers you mention to make your idea more appealing.

1 hour ago, Relype said:

archers would relay on enchant bow A grade or S grade and etc, archers without epics will hit again 2-3k with epics is 5k , and mages without valakas and AM +10 wont hit as hard as last season

Mages are going to eat archers alive dude. You think some 450 attack speed archer( again, you mention big numbers so im assuming you talk about what everyone plays, gs on dead eye) on maje/shyeed bow, w/o aq baium will stand a chance against a nuker on dc/daimon staff? Sure mages won't crit as hard but they dont have to. Competent players without access to valakas will just switch back to magnus and destroy archers. Why you  think nobody plays archers early season when everyone is equally geared?Because archers are trash without items. You also say yourself that archers would have to rely on A/S grade bow but you  also suggest increasing the prices by a lot on your opening post. You already put them on a shitty spot by your own suggestion. 

Your idea is nice but it would require a complete rework on damage values, to make some classes even playable w/o epics,and I don't see that happening. The reality of it is that mages and early season tyrants/gladies would just take over for the whole season and everyone would just whine for nerfs again.

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30 minutes ago, Djinn said:

No they don't.  That's literally the damage output you reach after you get aq/baium and you enchant your blows and it's mostly  against low defense mages. Unless you are talking about attacking 500 p.def plated leather archers, then sure, but the argument is kinda baseless. I read all of your post and you exaggerate most of the numbers you mention to make your idea more appealing.

Mages are going to eat archers alive dude. You think some 450 attack speed archer( again, you mention big numbers so im assuming you talk about what everyone plays, gs on dead eye) on maje/shyeed bow, w/o aq baium will stand a chance against a nuker on dc/daimon staff? Sure mages won't crit as hard but they dont have to. Competent players without access to valakas will just switch back to magnus and destroy archers. Why you  think nobody plays archers early season when everyone is equally geared?Because archers are trash without items. You also say yourself that archers would have to rely on A/S grade bow but you  also suggest increasing the prices by a lot on your opening post. You already put them on a shitty spot by your own suggestion. 

Your idea is nice but it would require a complete rework on damage values, to make some classes even playable w/o epics,and I don't see that happening. The reality of it is that mages and early season tyrants/gladies would just take over for the whole season and everyone would just whine for nerfs again.

Well require rework but I dont see any other idea which actually can save the server 🙂 and make it last longer. Also without valakas I barely crit and i was doing 600-700 dmg to archerw with resist, so I dont see it that bad at all, I can die with 3 crits or so.

Regards your comment about placing archers in a shit position, well currently they are shit because of the all expert skills and stream rewards which mages receive and get 100+ casting speed m.atk and etc... 

And if we leave epics in shop how the hell a mage can stand against archer with 4-5k crit ? Please explain it to me as I dont get it, they get baium and aq first day and thats it, transaction to archers is starting in day 2 with draconic bow and 2 epics ..... I am sure admin can increase the dmg of archers a little bit if they remove the epics, either p.atk or either crit dm , this can always be adjusted , but leaving epics will still leave the server in the current state of a week server and thats it. I am Happy to make full testing with you guys if its required and see what will be the best , because without testing you wont understand what i mean 🙂 .  As i said this all has been tested ot interlude server and gracia final faction server, and thats the only way you can make a stable server. A server with epics in the shop is more for PVE/PVP servers , where casual players have chance to farm somewhere in a zone to catch up. 

I agree with your statement to a degree, It will require a further dmg rework, but mostly on archers and some mages. But hey nothing is easy and straight forward, and I think have enough time to test before new season starts.

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30 minutes ago, Relype said:

Well require rework but I dont see any other idea which actually can save the server 🙂 and make it last longer. Also without valakas I barely crit and i was doing 600-700 dmg to archerw with resist, so I dont see it that bad at all, I can die with 3 crits or so.

Regards your comment about placing archers in a shit position, well currently they are shit because of the all expert skills and stream rewards which mages receive and get 100+ casting speed m.atk and etc... 

And if we leave epics in shop how the hell a mage can stand against archer with 4-5k crit ? Please explain it to me as I dont get it, they get baium and aq first day and thats it, transaction to archers is starting in day 2 with draconic bow and 2 epics ..... I am sure admin can increase the dmg of archers a little bit if they remove the epics, either p.atk or either crit dm , this can always be adjusted , but leaving epics will still leave the server in the current state of a week server and thats it. I am Happy to make full testing with you guys if its required and see what will be the best , because without testing you wont understand what i mean 🙂 .  As i said this all has been tested ot interlude server and gracia final faction server, and thats the only way you can make a stable server. A server with epics in the shop is more for PVE/PVP servers , where casual players have chance to farm somewhere in a zone to catch up. 

I agree with your statement to a degree, It will require a further dmg rework, but mostly on archers and some mages. But hey nothing is easy and straight forward, and I think have enough time to test before new season starts.

Balance its not just about archer vs mage .Mage is a killing machine at any stage .Archer is suposed to soft counter mage anyway ,but mage aint totally helpless .If archer has aq baium and db+++ thats end game and mage needs reach it as well to keep it up its simple as that .End game mages are not a joke,they are still at the top of food chain .If u dont know that than it means u never reach it and u dont know how good a mage with valakas +dc+6+tatoo+oe AM +shield+shield buffs+refresh can be .

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15 hours ago, Relype said:
  • Remove Epics from the shop
  • Make Epics only boss obtainable
  • Epics should have expiration time of 1440 minutes.
  • 1st boss to be a week after start and make respawn time much longer
  • Make S grade much more expensive, so it's unique and it is really end game, a good price would start even from 500-600k and then mats and etc. Or make mats much harder to get.
  • Make A grade a bit more expensive and make it worth buying.
  • Add normal scroll
  • Make Blessed scroll to start from 0% and to require kills to increase the chance of success, by doing this we will no longer strugle with the first day +16. Of course make it to maximum of 50% after +12 to have balance.

By

Lol. It is a season based pvp server. I'm not interested for the server to live over 2-3 months. Ppl get bored.

1. Epics are fine. Maybe add extra criteria: can only be bought once from shop, not tradable and char needs to have pvp lvl 5 (captain ) to wear it. This way item sharing amongst nolifer clans is limited and the it avoids the reroll of characters where you see a lvl 1 Archer with full s and epics.

2. Epics boss only obtainable: Bosses have random spawn times and that would be unfair. Noobs who get the drops sell them to the highest bid which are nolifer clans Making them unstoppable 

3. Spawn: Agree 7 days delay but if the respawn time is longer multiple boss jewels should drop. 

4. S grade harder to get, agree. Also no S drops should be on the first week.

5. A grade should also have pvp lvl requirements.

6. No normal scrolls. Higher grade should have reduced enchant rate 

7. This kill requirement for enchant success rate increase was already implemented several seasons ago. Strange enchanting machine - same concept.  You pvp'd for enchants and sacrificed them to gain higher success rate.

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BTW i agree with most point in the OP .In fact i suggested in the past that valakas and baium should be locked for the 1st 2 weeks .Same as for the sieges .Shadow epics dont think will help .It will create more unbalance since will be harder for the casuals while nolifers will have no problem to have this "shadow" epics as "perma" epics . A grade also needs to be kept cheap or even free late in the season to help newcommers .gear up faster .

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2 minutes ago, Lebron said:

Balance its not just about archer vs mage .Mage is a killing machine at any stage .Archer is suposed to soft counter mage anyway ,but mage aint totally helpless .If archer has aq baium and db+++ thats end game and mage needs reach it as well to keep it up its simple as that .End game mages are not a joke,they are still at the top of food chain .If u dont know that than it means u never reach it and u dont know how good a mage with valakas +dc+6+tatoo+oe AM +shield+shield buffs+refresh can be .

That is correct. But if archers decide to play smart (no zerk+resists) which is the correct way late game mages don't have a chance even with am+16. Anyhow removing epics from shop is bad.None can obtain epics from day 1 or 2 specially solo players. Only players in a CP can do that cause everyone put their money together. And people who donate of course. That goes for armor/weapon too. An S grade weapon specially DB requires at least 9000 material box. Nobody can farm 9000 material box in two days or even three. Bad suggestions.

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1 minute ago, TheStinger said:

That is correct. But if archers decide to play smart (no zerk+resists) which is the correct way late game mages don't have a chance even with am+16. Anyhow removing epics from shop is bad.None can obtain epics from day 1 or 2 specially solo players. Only players in a CP can do that cause everyone put their money together. And people who donate of course. That goes for armor/weapon too. An S grade weapon specially DB requires at least 9000 material box. Nobody can farm 9000 material box in two days or even three. Bad suggestions.

True archer can do that and will be very hard for the mage .But archer will make way less kills on the map ,and honestly i dont think its worth it ,OVC is all about killing and not preserve yourself from not dieing .A no zerk archer will have hard time killing other classes other than mages and even vs stacked mages it wont be easy ,they are also slower wich means their kite takes a hit too .

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4 hours ago, Silence said:

You have to keep in mind that in past seasons you mention @Chevignon, there were no Adena Scrolls that were scaling with Expertise Scavenger and also gear penalty. Full kill was 10-20a, killing spree`s and ending them was the point of progression.

And i think that most of the community remembers that back in those days season were still living for like 1-2months at least.  Epics should be close to normal Retail-Server end-game feature, not mages in DC robe and Daimon crystal staff farming for Valakas already because its not that hard to reach, but there should be some kind of progression like its suggested B=>A=>S grade Weapon/Armor=> Epics, people are already suggesting stuff like the one above because they simple know it from other Faction Servers that were successfull in the past and had much more longer seasons. The reason of that is because the grind was much harder than it is on current state of the server.

I see often people coming up with ideas and features from successfully servers from the golden age of L2.

The flaw (in my opinion) is, that they fully ignore the change in the l2 community themself. If i go back 8 or 10 years ago and taking a look at my life i was without girlfriend/wife, kids, social and job engagements that take peoples lifetime today.

So what i wanna say is, that most stuff which was working 10 years ago doesnt work today anymore because of peoples individually life change/life style.

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As i said in my post and thanks for the replies! 

About the noobs trading the epics, I said bellow that they should be made untradable for best balance. And you said that you will be bored for a server to last 3 months well is it good when it lasts 5 days ? or a week.... this system is build for faction server to last minimum 1 month, which i think is the right time before we got bored. Also stop talking about dmg This can be adjusted in further tests. Always mage dmg can be reduced and archer dmg increased. I dont know why you opush so hard for epics to be available in shop. as people said if i donate for 100k fa and selling it and at the same time farming with adena scroll its one day valakas.... As i did last season. We need a better system around jewels. Or we can add epics to be available to buy with difference points which we obtain by making kills. Dont know guys more suggestions around this area would be great, we need to make testings with archers and mages in dmg without epic system and adjust the dmg, Thats all i think is required. Or we can reduce the bonus of the epics 15% to 5% and same for valakas for reuse time and other stuff... Its too much

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8 minutes ago, Lebron said:

True archer can do that and will be very hard for the mage .But archer will make way less kills on the map ,and honestly i dont think its worth it ,OVC is all about killing and not preserve yourself from not dieing .A no zerk archer will have hard time killing other classes other than mages and even vs stacked mages it wont be easy ,they are also slower wich means their kite takes a hit too .

With this setup you don't even have to kite. Mages are dealing negative damage on you and if you have a healer behind you..oh mama!!! And your damage is still fine. Playing without zerk is not like you deal 1000 damage less. The difference is really low but the difference on your p.def/m.def/evasion is huge. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Chevignon said:

I see often people coming up with ideas and features from successfully servers from the golden age of L2.

The flaw (in my opinion) is, that they fully ignore the change in the l2 community themself. If i go back 8 or 10 years ago and taking a look at my life i was without girlfriend/wife, kids, social and job engagements that take peoples lifetime today.

So what i wanna say is, that most stuff which was working 10 years ago doesnt work today anymore because of peoples individually life change/life style.

Agree, but we can take the good things back then at least try to implement as change which might result in a success. We take the goods now and the goods back then, we do some testing , and thats how we can see if its going to be worth.

I am also working, having family to look after, but the point is that we can improve the server...   People who work or study are usually leaving as they have other things to do its not like before like 10 years ago as you said, most of the players were just playing .... So this will help the casual players to keep playing and not to worrie so much.

Edited by Relype

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Chevignon said:

I see often people coming up with ideas and features from successfully servers from the golden age of L2.

The flaw (in my opinion) is, that they fully ignore the change in the l2 community themself. If i go back 8 or 10 years ago and taking a look at my life i was without girlfriend/wife, kids, social and job engagements that take peoples lifetime today.

So what i wanna say is, that most stuff which was working 10 years ago doesnt work today anymore because of peoples individually life change/life style.

It`s not about bringing back the golden age of L2. Lineage 2 is not the same game anymore and it wont be. You know why? Because all those servers you see around are the same stuff, Interlude and H5 projects. Those chronicles are well-know to any kind of player that spent more than several years in the game. The game also become some kind of rat race on which you show how "amazing" you are by playing 24/7 and zerging with other clans because you are afraid of competition. The same stuff goes for this server. Just look at it and think about it, every time @Emerald changed something like adding adena scroll/changing the rate of adena from x1 to x10 had impact on the server in a good way.

People were lost and they had again to play, experience and explore the game and check what works. Right now, we are having the same Interlude it was in past 3 seasons, which means people got used to it, to the meta and farming stuff. They know what classes will give them Adena and what classes won`t or what playstyle. Back then people were playing longer and seasons were longer because things changed!

Im not ignoring the community and it`s age, believe me, i played plenty of lowrates that were dying after weeks or months because they were offering no challenges, if you play Interlude/H5, Classic is totally different topic and I totally love the way NCSoft brought back old-school L2( which they fcked up later anyway). My point is @Chevignon that OvC staff should ask themselves what do you want to achieve on this Project right now? You want a 1-2 weeks of PvP or longer lasting seasons. It`s not up to me, im just a player and as you can see there are lots of other players that I think prefer longer fun. For example if you are working and server will last 2 weeks, you will play few hours, more during weekend and then you might feel like, why was it so short?But if you have a more longer one, you wont have that feeling at all. People that play this one 24/7 are always the ones that are getting bored faster than people that are taking some breaks.

So right now, can you answer me on what kind of season are you aiming for?Short and often ones or long lasting ones?

Edited by Silence

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I think that the best chronicle for faction server will always be Gracia Final, but I don't know how hard is make it work. This would be a great project with great opportunity.

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