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Rhaegar

Counter Critical / Chant of Protection

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I think it's kinda weird to only have 1 of those skills without the other, as they pretty much work hand in hand to create balance - classes take CoP for damage reduction, and they also take CC to match that. 

 

Mages currently and will continue to have an advantage over any fighter; daggers, tyrants, archers etc. And that's pretty much because there are no buffs or anything you can do to prevent MCRIT damage - I can provide pictures if you really wish me to do so, but just tested with around 1.7k mdef, a brand new fresh SPH with no + items/attributes, would crit me between 7-9k on a vortex slug MCRIT, which is 80% of mine and most people's HP/CP pool. They can protect against fighter criticals through Chant of Protection, Eye of Paagrio, - this is already pseudo 60% critical damage, on top of the 10% crit damage nerf on archers as an added example, totalling at 70% critical damage reduction for archers on mages. Mages on the other hand, can crit from anywhere between 6-12k if they are geared - and this is without them having more pdef on their armours. When they'll start getting vorpal/elegia we as fighters will crit them for even less, whereas their damage will simply continue to increase.

 

As I had a conversation with you already about this, don't add Counter Critical if you think it's bugged or tricky to fix - however in turn remove Chant of Protection as it will buff critical damage and balance things out a) currently and b) long-term against mages and MCRITS in general. 

I and a lot of people have seen that the critical damage on this server made by fighters is simply too low when taking into account what items you have; certainly, compared to the damage you get from a fresh SPH that hasn't farmed for anything.

Again, not crying, simply making a concrete logical argument. I can provide pictures if necessary, but let me know about your thoughts.

 

Cheers

Edited by Rhaegar

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Tell me how you will balance archer after they pick extra range when you delate chant of protection? Range will by arround 1100-1200 with snipe+on movment. Archers will by grate agane on end game dont worry.

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@Venth Extra range would only help in open maps, so what about the other 50% of the time when range doesn't matter in the encounter? 

@Mersiles I expect a proper reply to a suggestion thread, this isn't general discussion, so act like a normal human being please

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10 minutes ago, Rhaegar said:

@Venth Extra range would only help in open maps, so what about the other 50% of the time when range doesn't matter in the encounter? 

So where are  mele classes you can see them only on fortress. 70-80% maps are open even minievent its for range only ride in the middle its good for close range.

ps. If emerlad will make maps 50/50 for close maps like dark elven village i will say ok 

Dont count tunnel maps, they are dump

Edited by Venth
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Wow, wow, 30% boost to critical based classes. Why not. Most profitable will be glass cannons with healers in party.

If mages are so strong why not remove pony buff instead? This will be profitable for everyone but maybe healers in party with glass cannons.

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It wouldn't change the fact that a fresh S grader SPH would 9k crit on 1.7k mdef without any items, that's what I'm trying to emphasize - the damage numbers don't match } mages vs fighters on crits

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1 minute ago, Rhaegar said:

It wouldn't change the fact that a fresh S grader SPH would 9k crit on 1.7k mdef without any items, that's what I'm trying to emphasize - the damage numbers don't match } mages vs fighters on crits

And you see some problem with that?  And I thought the problem was the daggers( just kidding )

Note that at the rate at which one mage can farm will be in soon in Elegia + topS84 weapon. Such a mage would be able to tear apart all the archers on the server alone.  Even if you somehow get with fighter epiq jewelry they will not compensate damage received.

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Why not to find solution to benefit all from this case? For example p.atck fighters wont affect anything from it, while being in the bottom on most aspects, it's archers vs mages, all solutions for one or other side, don't find any complex suggestions here. While other classes left behind, at least dagger got some love, but that's cents.

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I agree that mage(storm screamer) needs a nerf but if you remove chant of protection then archers will do more dmg that they already do, so no thanks.

my suggestions thread which Emerald closed, were a 10 % nerf to echo empo and a 50% nerf to magical criticals, I still think archers do a lot of damage even with 0 equip so I proposed the anti bow song but I think it's fine right now I would like to see how hard they hit this week when people start gearing up.

the boost for dagger isn't enough like chask said in another thread, it takes 5-7 blows to kill a MAGE, that isn't fair for a class that needs to be in melee range, I was struggling for 18-22 kills per map with dagger and never got a spree higher than 10 kills, daggers are supposed to kill FAST and retreat, not hitting a wall and die because your enemy outdps you in anyway.

Edited by elxdark

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I really think you don't even realize what you are suggesting here.

CC adds another 30% crit damage reduction, while it has a chance to trigger a buff that increases crit damage by x2 for short range attacks only

This will kill archers unless a boost will be introduced alongside it.

And since the trigger chance is very high it will make tryants/gladis/daggers 1 hit killers - which is why I told you it was removed in the first place.

I don't see why I need to introduce a skill that boost melees, when they are already nerfed - if something needs to be done then it is removing custom nerfs first when/if needed.

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4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I don't see why I need to introduce a skill that boost melees, when they are already nerfed - if something needs to be done then it is removing custom nerfs first when/if needed.

That would be the most logic step, before making other chain boost/nerf actions.

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12 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I really think you don't even realize what you are suggesting here.

CC adds another 30% crit damage reduction, while it has a chance to trigger a buff that increases crit damage by x2 for short range attacks only

This will kill archers unless a boost will be introduced alongside it.

And since the trigger chance is very high it will make tryants/gladis/daggers 1 hit killers - which is why I told you it was removed in the first place.

I don't see why I need to introduce a skill that boost melees, when they are already nerfed - if something needs to be done then it is removing custom nerfs first when/if needed.

as i remember, counter crit is removing chant of protection no? like cov and vop

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7 minutes ago, Advol said:

as i remember, counter crit is removing chant of protection no? like cov and vop

Nah, they stack.

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  I am also a little confused as to what is on offer :) 

My two cents on this:

In normal situations how is a pvp going 9 vs 9, mass pvp and so on:

Mages have buffs of OL, EE/SE, SWS, BD which means they don't have WC buffs (COV, COP).

Fighters have WC, EE/SE, SWS, BD which means they don't have Eye of Pa'agrio,  Pa'agrio's Fist except when they are on mass pvp.

Both types of parties may have CC from bot PP, 20 min duration and there is no way this buff to be rebuffed. 

I haven't seen pvp with dwarf buffs,  this is very, very rare.

I know from experience that in pvp where people have CC is organized in advance and it's a little difficult to drag the bot wherever you go.

The same is valid for mage pt which uses COP, they cannot have this buff permanent in their setup.

Conclusion:

Mages successfully fight against fighters without COV and COP  for years, on thousands of servers.

Possible solution:

Take away the ability of the mages to have WC buffs and fighters to have OL buffs.

Remove dwarf buffs.

Remove dance of berserker.

Why I suggest this:

Because these are the normal pvp situation in the game

PS: Don't add CC, will introduce an imbalance.

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49 minutes ago, chaks said:

  I am also a little confused as to what is on offer :) 

My two cents on this:

In normal situations how is a pvp going 9 vs 9, mass pvp and so on:

Mages have buffs of OL, EE/SE, SWS, BD which means they don't have WC buffs (COV, COP).

Fighters have WC, EE/SE, SWS, BD which means they don't have Eye of Pa'agrio,  Pa'agrio's Fist except when they are on mass pvp.

Both types of parties may have CC from bot PP, 20 min duration and there is no way this buff to be rebuffed. 

I haven't seen pvp with dwarf buffs,  this is very, very rare.

I know from experience that in pvp where people have CC is organized in advance and it's a little difficult to drag the bot wherever you go.

The same is valid for mage pt which uses COP, they cannot have this buff permanent in their setup.

Conclusion:

Mages successfully fight against fighters without COV and COP  for years, on thousands of servers.

Possible solution:

Take away the ability of the mages to have WC buffs and fighters to have OL buffs.

Remove dwarf buffs.

Remove dance of berserker.

Why I suggest this:

Because these are the normal pvp situation in the game

PS: Don't add CC, will introduce an imbalance.

Chaks plx stop make suggestion to change everything you can ask that on end of seasons when can by tested and emerald will have time to thing about that. Right now mele classes need little boost and something have to by done with splash aoe damage beacous its dump. Why? Ppl say mages get tons of adena but when they are so many and use only aoe drops are 1-10 a when 1 vs1 its should by 80a(imo should by 100 like was before) with % +/- gear boost.

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3 minutes ago, Venth said:

Chaks plx stop make suggestion to change everything you can ask that on end of seasons when can by tested and emerald will have time to thing about that. Right now mele classes need little boost and something have to by done with splash aoe damage beacous its dump. Why? Ppl say mages get tons of adena but when they are so many and use only aoe drops are 1-10 a when 1 vs1 its should by 80a(imo should by 100 like was before) with % +/- gear boost.

  3 things :

1st -  this season is doomed and what I suggest is to try the next one.

2-nd - you are trying to balance by modifying the characters,  it is easier to try different buff schemes first and more precisely.  You play with your characters stats,  but to check the impact of what you do neither you have anyone to test it (check tyrant vs sph by Interlude player is enough? :) )nor do you know what to expect,  nor you can test all possible situations.  Try easier solutions before trying complex things you can't test - remove all the nerfs (in next beta) and check how it would be with different schemes, then if necessary put nerfs. Is it simple? I think yes.

3-th you can't deny that the rewards system is broken. I saw people mention a system from some closed server that is valid to other faction servers to this day which at its core is - make kills get rewards, you get almost nothing.  I don't think you will pay attention to me but if anyone wants I can explain to him not in the forum because I have to mention server names.

yet I doubt you will listen to me and you will continue to put on and off any percentages of hero stats and I highly doubt you will ever change the reward system instead of using a proven one.  So stop dealing with me and do whatever you want,  Emerald asked for opinions - here they are,  you realize there is a problem - I offer simple solutions which are not required to be right and work but obviously what you are doing is not working and you do not change your approach :x 

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You are very wrong if u think any mage pt dont have cop on normal server in 9v9 scenario. Every server we played with mages we are making out of pt wc just for earth chant and cop.

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@chaks With your attitude no one will listen. 2nd what you suggesting will change to 5 min fight pt vs pt on same skill lvl(or run out of mp) like it is in h5.

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