Emerald

Adena & Progressive Gameplay

60 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Example for penalty: say you're a fully top tier guy killing a B-grader that just came into the server you will get 0% reward.

There's a problem: If a top tier player can quickly kill a B-grade player he will almost definitely do it without considering the reward and only after that switch to killing harder targets.

Also the problem exists, and some guys already mentioned it, that healers don't go with B-grade players when they can go with top tier players. This makes B-grade players much much easier to kill and attractive targets even if it gives zero reward.

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31 minutes ago, Madlaxy said:

There's a problem: If a top tier player can quickly kill a B-grade player he will almost definitely do it without considering the reward and only after that switch to killing harder targets.

Also the problem exists, and some guys already mentioned it, that healers don't go with B-grade players when they can go with top tier players. This makes B-grade players much much easier to kill and attractive targets even if it gives zero reward.

Now I cannot do anything about that can I ? I cannot force people to play with players they don't want.

I can however make stuff more visible so people will start changing priorities, like adding a message that the target you killed was a newbie and therefore no reward was given (something like the points and objective bonus message i've added last season).

The system could also expand to count more stuff than just adena, like XP/SP rewards and stats like killing a newbie wont counting toward pvp kill at all.

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There are some classes that dont need top gear to be relevant, daggers walk arround with bw armor and b grade dagger forever, mages go for DC set, gladis go for tallum not S grade, while some classes need a shittone of gear to be relevant so this system can cause problems. Cause killing certain classes will give more adena then killing others

Edited by RollingAsh

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7 minutes ago, RollingAsh said:

There are some classes that dont need top gear to be relevant, daggers walk arround with bw armor and b grade dagger forever, mages go for DC set, gladis go for tallum not S grade, while some classes need a shittone of gear to be relevant so this system can cause problems. Cause killing certain classes will give more adena then killing others

This would be solved when adding enchant to the money-gear balance, since a dagger with +6 full BW could be worth as much as a mage with DC set +0. Consider also boss jewels and tattoos, enchanted stabs counting in the relative adena drop.

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2 hours ago, Emerald said:

Example for penalty: say you're a fully top tier guy killing a B-grader that just came into the server you will get 0% reward.

Example for bonus: if a newbie that just came into server took part in killing a full tier S-grader (obviously he cannot kill him alone), he will get 500% bonus in reward, so if he was supposed to get 3 adena for the kill, he would get 30.

The percents will range from 0% to 500% depending on attacker and target stats as mentioned above.

Any thoughts? possible flaws? the idea is to get rid of progressive gameplay feature evantually.

In my opinion this would work as long as I could see that killing a B graded guy relative to my actual gear is worth low adena before I kill him. 

Same in the opposite way: newbies can see in advance that gathering to kill a geared player is very adena-worthy

Edited by Lesley
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3 hours ago, Lesley said:

In my opinion this would work as long as I could see that killing a B graded guy relative to my actual gear is worth low adena before I kill him. 

Same in the opposite way: newbies can see in advance that gathering to kill a geared player is very adena-worthy

There's no way to make it visible before the kill.

People will slowly learn it thought, since it will be visible through system message, just like points / objective points bonus are.

It would say something like:

You earned 3.4 points (2.1 objective bonus), target's gear bonus: 304%.

You earned 1.2 points (0.4 objective bonus), target's gear penalty: -48%.

Could probably improve the messages alittle bit to make it clearer but that's the general idea.

Enchants will be taken into consideration so yes, a B-grade +6 is wroth like A-grade +0, and A-grade +6 is worth like S-grade +0.

Also classes will be taken into consideration, so a mage wearing Valakas necklace will count more than a fighter wearing valakas necklace, but an archer/dagger wearing AQ or Baium will worth more than a mage wearing any of these.

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11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 


You earned 3.4 points (2.1 objective bonus), gear dependent bonus: 304%.

You earned 1.2 points (0.4 objective bonus), gear dependent penalty: -48%.

Could probably improve the messages alittle bit to make it clearer but that's the general idea.

Enchants will be taken into consideration so yes, a B-grade +6 is wroth like A-grade +0, and A-grade +6 is worth like S-grade +0.

Also classes will be taken into consideration, so a mage wearing Valakas necklace will count more than a fighter wearing valakas necklace, but an archer/dagger wearing AQ or Baium will worth more than a mage wearing any of these.

Perfect for me

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You could make a zone special for newbies B graders that just joined in and only for them... so that they could go there as well if they wanted to to play vs newbies 

 

@Edit

you could also make a counter of how many people are in the zone. FOr example if a guy wants to join an event he goes to the crystal and he nearby the button 'join the event' there is a number of people that is inside that event (for newbie zone that is) so new people didn't go there when it's 0 people inside...

Edited by PePeR

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+1

Making a pvp zone for newbies with let's say 76 lvl only and B grade gear could also help, they should be able to farm there and pvp till 77 or 78 lvl.

It would be a great opportunity for them to catch up geared players and farm some on equal level of gear.

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27 minutes ago, Emerald said:

There's no way to make it visible before the kill.

People will slowly learn it thought, since it will be visible through system message, just like points / objective points bonus are.

It would say something like:


You earned 3.4 points (2.1 objective bonus), gear dependent bonus: 304%.

You earned 1.2 points (0.4 objective bonus), gear dependent penalty: -48%.

Could probably improve the messages alittle bit to make it clearer but that's the general idea.

Enchants will be taken into consideration so yes, a B-grade +6 is wroth like A-grade +0, and A-grade +6 is worth like S-grade +0.

Also classes will be taken into consideration, so a mage wearing Valakas necklace will count more than a fighter wearing valakas necklace, but an archer/dagger wearing AQ or Baium will worth more than a mage wearing any of these.

Its looks good and promising but i wonder how complicated will by formula reward :D. Dont bother about visiblity before kill  just focus on this formula if you find time.

You can also make static reward and you can add this number to name tag above head. Maybe it can by calculated like this:

5 x class typ+epic x number of them + weapon maxplayerenchant + armor maxplayerenchant x class typ + yewellery maxplayerenchant x class typ + grade= reward for player 

class typ= 1 or 2 or 3         for example 1= archer/2=mage,glad, tyrant / 3=dagger,tank, cardi, wl                            

It took me 15 mints so it can have big holes maybe expanding your idea its better or expanding this one.

2 minutes ago, PePeR said:

You could make a zone special for newbies B graders that just joined in and only for them... so that they could go there as well if they wanted to to play vs newbies 

I dont thing separate player base its good idea . Back in time we have monument 1vs1 w/o any restriction of gear so if it would by gear calculated newbies vs newbies can play  same as geared player vs geared player. But it's all about emerald time to make any improvements

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47 minutes ago, Venth said:

5 x class typ+epic x number of them + weapon maxplayerenchant + armor maxplayerenchant x class typ + yewellery maxplayerenchant x class typ + grade= reward for player

by reward for player i mean how much player worth to split between players who attack him

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9 hours ago, Emerald said:

Example for penalty: say you're a fully top tier guy killing a B-grader that just came into the server you will get 0% reward.

Example for bonus: if a newbie that just came into server took part in killing a full tier S-grader (obviously he cannot kill him alone), he will get 500% bonus in reward, so if he was supposed to get 3 adena for the kill, he would get 30.

The percents will range from 0% to 500% depending on attacker and target stats as mentioned above.

Any thoughts? possible flaws? the idea is to get rid of progressive gameplay feature evantually.

As some other have stated, this new system have some serious flaws. Firstly, since this server is currently running on IL client, for some of us killing some high geared player while you are using lower gear is not that hard at all. For example if you are playing a DC/AM/ mage with full epics and you face some newcomer who knows how to play, and who picked a dagger using clean BW Light/DD and 3x elemental resists ? You will face a hard time trying to kill him without any significant benefits, while he can do it in 3-4 blows and be rewarded considerably. So while you are trying to kill some other high geared mage or archer to get something from them, you can easily be targeted & prioritized by a pack of ravage newbies, because you are a walking money bag for them. You can also be a pain in the ass like that for the other higher geared players by playing C/B-grade gladi/tyrant or even a tank.
Also, another flaw is that i can easily use a +6 Draco set vs some other high geared archer/dagger, and switch to +0 BW to kill easily some top geared mage, while he opposes with less desire knowing that his kill reward will be significantly lesser than mine. That way there will be a lot of avoiding between the players/classes, which we all know is really bad.
 

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25 minutes ago, Redman said:

For example if you are playing a DC/AM/ mage with full epics and you face some newcomer who knows how to play, and who picked a dagger using clean BW Light/DD and 3x elemental resists

If he knows how to play and can manage to kill a fully geared mage then where's the problem? this rarely happens unless the mage takes zerk/magnus and shows his back to the dagger, since a newbie dagger won't even have bluff to use or focus death/power - this theory can easily be tested btw, no need to throw in guesses here.

33 minutes ago, Redman said:

You can also be a pain in the ass like that for the other higher geared players by playing C/B-grade gladi/tyrant or even a tank.
Also, another flaw is that i can easily use a +6 Draco set vs some other high geared archer/dagger, and switch to +0 BW to kill easily some top geared mage, while he opposes with less desire knowing that his kill reward will be significantly lesser than mine. That way there will be a lot of avoiding between the players/classes, which we all know is really bad.

That's where ranks steps into the formula, you have to remember this system is there only to help newbies, no more than that.

If you're a rank 10 player and decide to continue playing in B-grade, that's your decision, my system will still mark you as an S-grader.

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42 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If he knows how to play and can manage to kill a fully geared mage then where's the problem? this rarely happens unless the mage takes zerk/magnus and shows his back to the dagger, since a newbie dagger won't even have bluff to use or focus death/power - this theory can easily be tested btw, no need to throw in guesses here.

The problem is for the mage who can find himself in a situation where he will have a couple of newbies on his back, newbies for which he will probably get nothing in return reward-wise, if he even manages to kill them.
Also, won't you still count for a newbie, even if initially you just went to the farm zone to level 78 and then go for PVP ?  
 

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9 minutes ago, Redman said:

The problem is for the mage who can find himself in a situation where he will have a couple of newbies on his back, newbies for which he will probably get nothing in return reward-wise, if he even manages to kill them.
Also, won't you still count for a newbie, even if initially you just went to the farm zone to level 78 and then go for PVP ?  
 

I think this is good because there are several big names on this server who evidently farm newbies season after season. This might motivate them to start killing people of their ranks. 

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13 minutes ago, Redman said:

The problem is for the mage who can find himself in a situation where he will have a couple of newbies on his back, newbies for which he will probably get nothing in return reward-wise, if he even manages to kill them.
Also, won't you still count for a newbie, even if initially you just went to the farm zone to level 78 and then go for PVP ?  

How many newbies? 2? 3? if a couple of newbies make 1 hand on the same target the server would've been in a perfect situation, it is usually the opposite situation where its the veteran who got a couple of friends with him aiming at newbies.

Anyway I understand what you are trying to say, but like I said before, this situation can easily be tested to check how "bad" it would be, you can just drop me a PM when you wanna log in and we'll check.

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On 2/2/2019 at 9:11 AM, Venth said:

You have valid point about that every  class scaling in different way, so base adena  value can by higher for daggers, healers, tanks, duelist, tyrants, wl, spoil -averange for mages -lowest for archer(they need tons  of gear to by top). Looking at your idea it have big   holes. Mage, archer, dagger or duelist (depends of server time) will make tons of kills but they are supported by healers, tanks or wl  and most of them don t have any value in adena/hard to kill.

 

huh i used to play warlord in a season (MDFukinRuckus) but like ... it has ... a lot of value....pretty much most of the value in summ' cases if played well...Now tanks....tanks should be uber mama focas that can determine a winning round gameplay....they can't use all their buffs slots indeed , neither warlord  and they should have some boosts . WL ....speed shockwave range .......and tanks some dmg.... but they already got some boosts as far as i know ... idk about warlord i remember making a post for it but never got thru' as far as i remembah' but it surely needs speed rotfl )))))). 

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10 hours ago, Emerald said:

Now I cannot do anything about that can I ? I cannot force people to play with players they don't want.

I can however make stuff more visible so people will start changing priorities, like adding a message that the target you killed was a newbie and therefore no reward was given (something like the points and objective bonus message i've added last season).

The system could also expand to count more stuff than just adena, like XP/SP rewards and stats like killing a newbie wont counting toward pvp kill at all.

pffff it feels bad if we really need to do this to our people so they won't be chickens anymore lewl. ))). But Heh.... :delf2_4:

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like i said before, the problem with this is that gear has different influence on different classes, dagger can use demon dagger with bw till end game so killing a dagger will never be worth as much as other classes, mages will use DC set and there are classes like archers who need full s grade. I think that something based on rank and lvl will be more apropiate, besides this could be exploitable since some lvl 80 daggers can simply change their gear and still pwn, like some1 said above woot if some geniouses go b grade and simply camp a person in s grade, nobody will bother to hit them cuz they are wothless and they can run arround focusing certain people. There is already enough dickholding, u can notice in events that the greeks dont hit each when they are in opposite factions.

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3 minutes ago, RollingAsh said:

like i said before, the problem with this is that gear has different influence on different classes, dagger can use demon dagger with bw till end game so killing a dagger will never be worth as much as other classes, mages will use DC set and there are classes like archers who need full s grade. I think that something based on rank and lvl will be more apropiate, besides this could be exploitable since some lvl 80 daggers can simply change their gear and still pwn, like some1 said above woot if some geniouses go b grade and simply camp a person in s grade, nobody will bother to hit them cuz they are wothless and they can run arround focusing certain people. There is already enough dickholding, u can notice in events that the greeks dont hit each when they are in opposite factions.

Read

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

That's where ranks steps into the formula, you have to remember this system is there only to help newbies, no more than that.

If you're a rank 10 player and decide to continue playing in B-grade, that's your decision, my system will still mark you as an S-grader.

BTW I must remind you people that a gear dependent system exists since ages now in L2OvC, players in S-grade still got about 80% less adena reward from killing newbies, the points you bring now are valid for the existing gear dependent system aswell but how come nobody complained about it so far? because it might be better than you think - this "people will switch to B-grade whenever they are about to make a kill" theory is kinda nonsense and not really doable during mass PvP.

The suggestions I give here are just improvements to an existing system, extending it to use also enchants, class and ranks as parameters rather than just gear - and the penalty would still be about the same in most cases, its the boost that got a much wider range (up to 500%).

I can extend it to also use level although I don't really think it would be nessasry, but yeah I can assume that by the time you reach 79, you should be considered A-grade at least.

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which reminds me, there are some cases in which if u kite some1 and kill him u dont get any reward dunno if it has anything to do with the range, but it happens quite often

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2 hours ago, Emerald said:

Read

BTW I must remind you people that a gear dependent system exists since ages now in L2OvC, players in S-grade still got about 80% less adena reward from killing newbies, the points you bring now are valid for the existing gear dependent system aswell but how come nobody complained about it so far? because it might be better than you think - this "people will switch to B-grade whenever they are about to make a kill" theory is kinda nonsense and not really doable during mass PvP.

The suggestions I give here are just improvements to an existing system, extending it to use also enchants, class and ranks as parameters rather than just gear - and the penalty would still be about the same in most cases, its the boost that got a much wider range (up to 500%).

I can extend it to also use level although I don't really think it would be nessasry, but yeah I can assume that by the time you reach 79, you should be considered A-grade at least.

Btw this topic was about increasing adena drop rate by  server progress time and remove discounts from progressive gameplay.  Maybe current system can handle this or improve it  or make completely different formula based what Lesley and me was talking about(newbie will drop 5a and top player based on gear/class will drop max 50-70 a . Biggest problem of current farming stile its how fast you can kill newbies to gain adena because  killing same geared player its not rewarding or they play in same faction(this is biggest problem).

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But if u look at the daggers, not easy to kill ++ geared mage or archer without a QA, and if a dagger in +0 bw equip a boss jewel we can actually consider him as top gear actually, since they need only a few items to be good.

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Look example of formula what I show above.

5a x class typ+epic x number of them + weapon maxplayerenchant + armor maxplayerenchant x class typ + yewellery maxplayerenchant x class typ + grade= player drop

class typ= 1 or 2 or 3         for example 1= archer/2=mage,glad, tyrant / 3=dagger,tank, cardi, wl

I little expand what I was thing

grade=0 if b /5 if a /10 if s

All epics are considered as s grade and one epic its considered as 5a

Max player enchant- example we have armor are  +1 +2 +3+1 and we take only +3 number

5a its base drop of adena

If there will 2 players mage and dagger with 15k adena.

Dagger have only qa with +0 all items yewellery/armor

5a x3+5ax1+0+0+0+10= 30a

Mage have  dc set / top weapon a grade +3 with other and +3 armor/yewellery  enchants

5a x2+0+3+3x2+3x2 +5=30a

Maybe drop its to height but its just example and you can make it 2/3 or 1/2. 

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5 hours ago, RollingAsh said:

which reminds me, there are some cases in which if u kite some1 and kill him u dont get any reward dunno if it has anything to do with the range, but it happens quite often

And this is related to this subject in which way exactly? o.O

If there are bugs you should report it while the season runs as soon as you encounter it, after verifiying that it indeed still exists because as far as I remember I already fixed it.

@Venth don't bother with formulas, I might already have an implementation - i'm also not in favor of making someone count more just because he choice a specific class, it has to be a combination of something (like a dagger wearing AQ / Baium).

Also healers modifiers will be the average modifiers of the party they play with, for example if healer wears B-grade and plays with an S-grader, he'll count as A-grader, and if he plays with a B-grader, he'll count as a B-grader.

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